Reference Translation by Bhikkhu Sujato (CC0).
Tena kho pana samayena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto macchikāsaṇḍaṁ anuppatto hoti mahatiyā nigaṇṭhaparisāya saddhiṁ.
Now at that time the Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan had arrived at Macchikāsaṇḍa together with a large assembly of Jain ascetics.
Assosi kho citto gahapati: “nigaṇṭho kira nāṭaputto macchikāsaṇḍaṁ anuppatto mahatiyā nigaṇṭhaparisāya saddhin”ti.
Citta the householder heard that they had arrived.
Atha kho citto gahapati sambahulehi upāsakehi saddhiṁ yena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā nigaṇṭhena nāṭaputtena saddhiṁ sammodi.
Together with several lay followers, he went up to the Jain Ñātika and exchanged greetings with him.
Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinnaṁ kho cittaṁ gahapatiṁ nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto etadavoca:
When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. The Jain Ñātika said to him,
“saddahasi tvaṁ, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa—
“Householder, do you have faith in the ascetic Gotama’s claim that
atthi avitakko avicāro samādhi, atthi vitakkavicārānaṁ nirodho”ti?
there is a state of immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected?”
“Na khvāhaṁ ettha, bhante, bhagavato saddhāya gacchāmi.
“Sir, in this case I don’t rely on faith in the Buddha’s claim that
Atthi avitakko avicāro samādhi, atthi vitakkavicārānaṁ nirodho”ti.
there is a state of immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected.”
Evaṁ vutte, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto ulloketvā etadavoca:
When he said this, the Jain Ñātika looked up at his assembly and said,
“idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva ujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva asaṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva amāyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapati, vātaṁ vā so jālena bādhetabbaṁ maññeyya, yo vitakkavicāre nirodhetabbaṁ maññeyya, sakamuṭṭhinā vā so gaṅgāya sotaṁ āvāretabbaṁ maññeyya, yo vitakkavicāre nirodhetabbaṁ maññeyyā”ti.
“See, good fellows, how straightforward this householder Citta is! He’s not devious or deceitful at all. To imagine that you can stop placing the mind and keeping it connected would be like imagining that you can catch the wind in a net, or dam the Ganges river with your own hand.”
“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, bhante,
“What do you think, sir?
katamaṁ nu kho paṇītataraṁ—ñāṇaṁ vā saddhā vā”ti?
Which is better—knowledge or faith?”
“Saddhāya kho, gahapati, ñāṇaṁyeva paṇītataran”ti.
“Knowledge is definitely better than faith, householder.”
“Ahaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.
“Well sir, whenever I want, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Ahaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā …pe… dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.
And whenever I want, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled … I enter and remain in the second absorption.
Ahaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, pītiyā ca virāgā …pe… tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.
And whenever I want, with the fading away of rapture … I enter and remain in the third absorption.
Ahaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, sukhassa ca pahānā …pe… catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.
And whenever I want, giving up pleasure and pain … I enter and remain in the fourth absorption.
Na so khvāhaṁ, bhante, evaṁ jānanto evaṁ passanto kassa aññassa samaṇassa vā brāhmaṇassa vā saddhāya gamissāmi?
And so, sir, since I know and see like this, why should I rely on faith in another ascetic or brahmin who claims that
Atthi avitakko avicāro samādhi, atthi vitakkavicārānaṁ nirodho”ti.
there is a state of immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected?”
Evaṁ vutte, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto sakaṁ parisaṁ apaloketvā etadavoca:
When he said this, the Jain Ñātika looked askance at his own assembly and said,
“idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva anujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva saṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva māyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapatī”ti.
“See, good fellows, how crooked this householder Citta is! He’s so devious and deceitful!”
“Idāneva kho te mayaṁ, bhante, bhāsitaṁ:
“Sir, just now I understood you to say:
‘evaṁ ājānāma idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva ujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva asaṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva amāyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapatī’ti.
‘See, good fellows, how straightforward this householder Citta is! He’s not devious or deceitful at all.’
Idāneva ca pana mayaṁ, bhante, bhāsitaṁ:
But then I understood you to say:
‘evaṁ ājānāma idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva anujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva saṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva māyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapatī’ti.
‘See, good fellows, how crooked this householder Citta is! He’s so devious and deceitful!’
Sace te, bhante, purimaṁ saccaṁ, pacchimaṁ te micchā.
If your first statement is true, the second is wrong.
Sace pana te, bhante, purimaṁ micchā, pacchimaṁ te saccaṁ.
If your first statement is wrong, the second is true.
Ime kho pana, bhante, dasa sahadhammikā pañhā āgacchanti.
And also, sir, these ten legitimate questions are relevant.
Yadā nesaṁ atthaṁ ājāneyyāsi, atha maṁ paṭihareyyāsi saddhiṁ nigaṇṭhaparisāya.
When you understand what they mean, then, together with your assembly of Jain ascetics, you can rebut me.
Eko pañho, eko uddeso, ekaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ.
‘One thing: question, summary, and answer.
Dve pañhā, dve uddesā, dve veyyākaraṇāni.
Two …
Tayo pañhā, tayo uddesā, tīṇi veyyākaraṇāni.
Three …
Cattāro pañhā, cattāro uddesā, cattāri veyyākaraṇāni.
Four …
Pañca pañhā, pañca uddesā, pañca veyyākaraṇāni.
Five …
Cha pañhā, cha uddesā, cha veyyākaraṇāni.
Six …
Satta pañhā, satta uddesā, satta veyyākaraṇāni.
Seven …
Aṭṭha pañhā, aṭṭha uddesā, aṭṭha veyyākaraṇāni.
Eight …
Nava pañhā, nava uddesā, nava veyyākaraṇāni.
Nine …
Dasa pañhā, dasa uddesā, dasa veyyākaraṇānī”ti.
Ten things: question, summary, and answer.’”
Atha kho citto gahapati nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ ime dasa sahadhammike pañhe āpucchitvā uṭṭhāyāsanā pakkāmīti.
Then Citta rose from his seat and left without asking the Jain Ñātika these ten legitimate questions.
Aṭṭhamaṁ.
Reference Translation by Bhikkhu Sujato (CC0).
Now at that time the Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan had arrived at Macchikāsaṇḍa together with a large assembly of Jain ascetics.
Citta the householder heard that they had arrived.
Together with several lay followers, he went up to the Jain Ñātika and exchanged greetings with him.
When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. The Jain Ñātika said to him,
“Householder, do you have faith in the ascetic Gotama’s claim that
there is a state of immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected?”
“Sir, in this case I don’t rely on faith in the Buddha’s claim that
there is a state of immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected.”
When he said this, the Jain Ñātika looked up at his assembly and said,
“See, good fellows, how straightforward this householder Citta is! He’s not devious or deceitful at all. To imagine that you can stop placing the mind and keeping it connected would be like imagining that you can catch the wind in a net, or dam the Ganges river with your own hand.”
“What do you think, sir?
Which is better—knowledge or faith?”
“Knowledge is definitely better than faith, householder.”
“Well sir, whenever I want, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
And whenever I want, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled … I enter and remain in the second absorption.
And whenever I want, with the fading away of rapture … I enter and remain in the third absorption.
And whenever I want, giving up pleasure and pain … I enter and remain in the fourth absorption.
And so, sir, since I know and see like this, why should I rely on faith in another ascetic or brahmin who claims that
there is a state of immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected?”
When he said this, the Jain Ñātika looked askance at his own assembly and said,
“See, good fellows, how crooked this householder Citta is! He’s so devious and deceitful!”
“Sir, just now I understood you to say:
‘See, good fellows, how straightforward this householder Citta is! He’s not devious or deceitful at all.’
But then I understood you to say:
‘See, good fellows, how crooked this householder Citta is! He’s so devious and deceitful!’
If your first statement is true, the second is wrong.
If your first statement is wrong, the second is true.
And also, sir, these ten legitimate questions are relevant.
When you understand what they mean, then, together with your assembly of Jain ascetics, you can rebut me.
‘One thing: question, summary, and answer.
Two …
Three …
Four …
Five …
Six …
Seven …
Eight …
Nine …
Ten things: question, summary, and answer.’”
Then Citta rose from his seat and left without asking the Jain Ñātika these ten legitimate questions.
Tena kho pana samayena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto macchikāsaṇḍaṁ anuppatto hoti mahatiyā nigaṇṭhaparisāya saddhiṁ.
Assosi kho citto gahapati: “nigaṇṭho kira nāṭaputto macchikāsaṇḍaṁ anuppatto mahatiyā nigaṇṭhaparisāya saddhin”ti.
Atha kho citto gahapati sambahulehi upāsakehi saddhiṁ yena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā nigaṇṭhena nāṭaputtena saddhiṁ sammodi.
Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinnaṁ kho cittaṁ gahapatiṁ nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto etadavoca:
“saddahasi tvaṁ, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa—
atthi avitakko avicāro samādhi, atthi vitakkavicārānaṁ nirodho”ti?
“Na khvāhaṁ ettha, bhante, bhagavato saddhāya gacchāmi.
Atthi avitakko avicāro samādhi, atthi vitakkavicārānaṁ nirodho”ti.
Evaṁ vutte, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto ulloketvā etadavoca:
“idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva ujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva asaṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva amāyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapati, vātaṁ vā so jālena bādhetabbaṁ maññeyya, yo vitakkavicāre nirodhetabbaṁ maññeyya, sakamuṭṭhinā vā so gaṅgāya sotaṁ āvāretabbaṁ maññeyya, yo vitakkavicāre nirodhetabbaṁ maññeyyā”ti.
“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, bhante,
katamaṁ nu kho paṇītataraṁ—ñāṇaṁ vā saddhā vā”ti?
“Saddhāya kho, gahapati, ñāṇaṁyeva paṇītataran”ti.
“Ahaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.
Ahaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā …pe… dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.
Ahaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, pītiyā ca virāgā …pe… tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.
Ahaṁ kho, bhante, yāvadeva ākaṅkhāmi, sukhassa ca pahānā …pe… catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.
Na so khvāhaṁ, bhante, evaṁ jānanto evaṁ passanto kassa aññassa samaṇassa vā brāhmaṇassa vā saddhāya gamissāmi?
Atthi avitakko avicāro samādhi, atthi vitakkavicārānaṁ nirodho”ti.
Evaṁ vutte, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto sakaṁ parisaṁ apaloketvā etadavoca:
“idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva anujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva saṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva māyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapatī”ti.
“Idāneva kho te mayaṁ, bhante, bhāsitaṁ:
‘evaṁ ājānāma idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva ujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva asaṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva amāyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapatī’ti.
Idāneva ca pana mayaṁ, bhante, bhāsitaṁ:
‘evaṁ ājānāma idaṁ bhavanto passantu, yāva anujuko cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva saṭho cāyaṁ citto gahapati, yāva māyāvī cāyaṁ citto gahapatī’ti.
Sace te, bhante, purimaṁ saccaṁ, pacchimaṁ te micchā.
Sace pana te, bhante, purimaṁ micchā, pacchimaṁ te saccaṁ.
Ime kho pana, bhante, dasa sahadhammikā pañhā āgacchanti.
Yadā nesaṁ atthaṁ ājāneyyāsi, atha maṁ paṭihareyyāsi saddhiṁ nigaṇṭhaparisāya.
Eko pañho, eko uddeso, ekaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ.
Dve pañhā, dve uddesā, dve veyyākaraṇāni.
Tayo pañhā, tayo uddesā, tīṇi veyyākaraṇāni.
Cattāro pañhā, cattāro uddesā, cattāri veyyākaraṇāni.
Pañca pañhā, pañca uddesā, pañca veyyākaraṇāni.
Cha pañhā, cha uddesā, cha veyyākaraṇāni.
Satta pañhā, satta uddesā, satta veyyākaraṇāni.
Aṭṭha pañhā, aṭṭha uddesā, aṭṭha veyyākaraṇāni.
Nava pañhā, nava uddesā, nava veyyākaraṇāni.
Dasa pañhā, dasa uddesā, dasa veyyākaraṇānī”ti.
Atha kho citto gahapati nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ ime dasa sahadhammike pañhe āpucchitvā uṭṭhāyāsanā pakkāmīti.
Aṭṭhamaṁ.